After reading the Forbes article “Why are Indian Reservations so Poor? A Look at the Bottom 1%” by John Koppisch and Rodney Thomas’s response, which I highly encourage reading, I was struck by how the problem boiled down to the land. Koppisch observes:
Prosperity is built on property rights, and reservations often have neither. They’re a demonstration of what happens when property rights are weak or non-existent.
Property rights of reservations are held by all the members there, so no one person or entity outright owns the land. There are reasons for this, as Thomas points out. One is that the land is sacred to the natives. Says Thomas:
For many Native Americans, because of their religious convictions, Vine DeLoria argues that their identity is tied to the land, and not the history of the left/right divide (God is Red, page 61).
In other words, native Americans don’t think as we do. For that matter, neither did ancient Israel. Amazing to me are all the references to land in the Tanak. Furthermore, in a conversation on this topic with my friend Drew Scott, if natives’ identity is tied to the land, and the land they’ve been apportioned is considered scraps by what they had prior to the colonial era, then it could be that they begin to identify themselves as people deserving of only the scraps and live according to that identity. Perhaps this might be a stretch, but there might also be some truth to it.
Hence, I particularly found problematic and disturbing Koppisch reading his Forbian worldview onto the land management of the indigenous peoples. Now, in fairness, one cannot completely fault Koppisch given that he has not grown up as a native American. Yet, because he is well travelled as is stated on his profile, it is reasonable that he is responsible enough to know the cultural differences, that they matter, and that they should be respected. Koppisch’s citing of one person who agrees with him is hard to take seriously, given a number of natives that disagree.
Last year, my friend Bo Sanders completed his thesis on contextualization under Randy Woodley, a native American professor at the Seminary. The following paragraph sheds light not only on this issue but issues of biblical studies and theology:
Ray Aldred was one of those with caution for me. Ray was concerned that when most ‘white guys’ talk about context, they got two things wrong. The first was that they came from a philosophical framework. The problem is that they use philosophical vocabulary and ideas that were imported from Europe. He explained to me how that has historically been a problem in this land. The second concern was that often when white guys say ‘context’ they’ve really meant ‘society.’ They did not mean the unique aspect of a locale; they meant the human dealings that happened at that locale. They did not mean the land; they meant what happened on the land. Ray challenged me to “make sure you get down to the soil. Otherwise you’re not talking about context you’re talking about society. Theology has to engage the land.” (pp. 7–8; emphasis mine)
Society cannot be ignored, but Sanders makes a good point: the discussion of context has been too limited. Context in modern biblical studies often refers to matters dealing with culture, society, literature, worldview — all these and more, but appears to hardly ever include land. I find little references to archaeology, geography, and topography in biblical literature. Could it be that biblical exegetes and theologians have fallen into the same trap as American culture that says our way—the form-, source-, redactional-, historical-, literary-, sociological-, anthropological-critical way and so forth—is the best way? Might studies of the land also be beneficial to biblical and theological studies in ways that the above-mentioned critical methods have?
More broadly, American society more generally has surely come to a point where we have recognized our mistreatment of others. To make up for it, we believe that everyone should have various rights and freedom, and yes, these things are good. Yet, to borrow and modify an idea from my friend Nate Hill, we often take our consumerism, capitalism, and radical individualism—things which have mastered us instead of vice versa—and believe these things are the best for other people.
Neither the Forbian worldview nor the American consumeristic-capitalistic model are the answer. The answer lies in the gospel and Scriptures that teach us to be stewards, not exploiters, of the resources given to us, and this includes the land. From the biblical view, all land is God’s land and thus property rights ultimately belong to a God who gives land to be shared among humanity and the rest of creation. In this regard, the native Americans have it right.
[Gen 12:1] says “Now the LORD said to Abram, ‘Go from your country and your kindred and your father’s house to the land that I will show you.'”
[Gen 13:15] says “.. for all the land that you see I will give to you and to your offspring forever.”
[Gen 13:17] says “Arise, walk through the length and the breadth of the land, for I will give it to you.”
[Gen 15:7] says “And he said to him, “I am the LORD who brought you out from Ur of the Chaldeans to give you this land to possess.”
[Gen 17:8] says “And will give to you and to your offspring after you the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession, and will be their God.”
[Gen 35:12] says “The land that I gave to Abraham and Isaac I will give to you, and I will give the land to your offspring after you.”
[Exo 20:12] says “Honor your father and your mother, othat your days may be long in the land that the LORD your God is giving you.
[Exo 23:29-31] says “I will not drive them out from before you in one year, lest the land become desolate and the wild beasts multiply against you. Little by little I will drive them out from before you, until you have increased and possess the land. And I will set your border from the Red Sea to the Sea of the Philistines, and from the wilderness to the Euphrates, for I will give the inhabitants of the land into your hand, and you shall drive them out before you.”
[Exo 34:24] says “For I will cast out nations before you and enlarge your borders; no one shall covet your land, when you go up to appear before the LORD your God three times in the year.
[Lev 18:25] says “and the land became unclean, so that I punished its iniquity, and the land vomited out its inhabitants.”
[Lev 18:27-28] says “(for the people of the land, who were before you, did all of these abominations, so that the land became unclean), lest the land vomit you out when you make it unclean, as it vomited out the nation that was before you.”
[Lev 20:22] says “You shall therefore keep all my statutes and all my rules and do them, that the land where I am bringing you to live may not vomit you out.”
[Num 18:20] says “And the LORD said to Aaron, “You shall have no inheritance in their land, neither shall you have any portion among them. I am your portion and your inheritance among the people of Israel.
[Num 20:12] says “And the LORD said to Moses and Aaron, “Because you did not believe in me, to uphold me as holy in the eyes of the people of Israel, therefore you shall not bring this assembly into the land that I have given them.”
[Num 21:34-34] says “But the LORD said to Moses, ‘Do not fear him, for I have given him into your hand, and all his people, and his land. And you shall do to him as you did to Sihon king of the Amorites, who lived at Heshbon.’ So they defeated him and his sons and all his people, until he had no survivor left. And they possessed his land.”
[Num 26:53] says “Among these the land shall be divided for inheritance according to the number of names.”
Well, you’re certainly correct that there are a lot of references to land in the bible. The biblical view indeed suggests that all land may be God’s land and thus property rights ultimately belong to a God. However, given the above quotes, it doesn’t sound a whole lot like God is giving land to be shared among humanity and the rest of creation.
Although when “the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he divided mankind, he fixed the borders of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God ([Deut 32:8]), it still sounds like God reserves the right to grant land as an inheritance to those who fear him [Lev 20:22], and remove it from those who don’t [Num 21:34-35]. If a people have been vomited out of their land [Lev 18:25], perhaps they should repent and turn to the Lord, rather than complain and advocate for more equitable sharing.
@JohnDave: It is sad how the Native Americans have been treated in our nation. It is sad how we’ve come to disrespect Creation. We use Creation as a means to an end rather than as something for which we should care. Most Americans can’t imagine the idea of land as something other than a resource to be plundered.
@Andrew: I’m going to warn you regarding your commenting here on this blog on two fronts: (1) See our commenting policy #5. We know Scripture. We have the tools to go read references. We don’t need you to copy and paste long passages into your comments. (2) While you have the right to misguided ideas regarding European invasion of North America being equivalent to the Hebrews invading Canaan you do not have the right to use this blog as a forum for such ideas. If I see anything like the final line of your last paragraph on this blog again I will block you from commenting. Go to Fox News’ website if you want to spew forth that type of worldview, OK?
Brian, I agree that I over did it with the quoting the bible given policy #5. I’ll not do that again. However I’m not American, or am I Fox News interested, or even Fox News aware, so seeing things through bi-polar, black-white American simplified lens doesn’t mean my opinion isn’t valid or right-wing as you seem to be implying.
My last line was based upon the biblical view that since it is God who distributes land, no one has cause to complain about how he does it. I was pointing out the logical fallacy contained in the post above. Logically you cannot say all property belongs to God and then lament what he does with it (ala the Canaanites). An over active sense of American guilt is getting in the way of sound judgment.
But, since you brought it up, before you chastise my knowledge of N. American native history, you should bone up on it a bit your self. I’ve actually studied native history, and know more than white liberal stereotypes. N. American Indians were not ‘wronged by’ Europeans as you seem to falsely portray. Your own history of the French-Indian wars shows how the native N. Americans were already killing themselves without European help quite handily. (For example the Algonquian peoples were nearly exterminated by the Iroquois confederacy’s genocide had it not been for European involvement). It is quite probable, at least in Northern North American (i.e. Northern US/Canada) that had it not been for European involvement, many of the natives that exist today would no longer.
When the British and French fought over N. American the natives split along traditional native lines and aligned themselves first with French / British lines, and after 1776 along American / British lines. Recall that the war of 1812 was fought (by Canada and Britain at least) over the issue of preserving native rights to land.
Now this is your blog, and I am a guest here, so you can ban me, tolerate me, warn me when I breach your rules, or what-ever. I am at your mercy, but please don’t disparage either my motivation or misrepresent my position.
Andrew T.: I come from a model that preexists the Abrahamic-Isaacic-Israelic model: pre-Genesis 11 to be exact. So, yes, God has given the land to be shared among creation. This appears in the new creation model—or the restoration of creation—as well. Secondly, your analogy is invalid as far as I can tell. I’m not aware of native Americans being “vomited” out of the land but rather being herded in and enclosed onto reservations. Lastly, your comment both misses and validates my point. It misses it in that I’m not speaking of people being loyal to God, which is another issue, but I’m speaking of the mistreatment of people by people who were/are supposed to be of God and these same people plundering land. It validates my point in that you as someone involved with the Bible minimize the importance of land. As Brian has warned, it would be best to be more sensitive. I would suggest you take a look at the post and the two articles without your presuppositions and see if you can understand where the post coming from.
Brian: That’s exactly right. The plundering clearly shows in Koppisch’s article and I can understand why Rodney would respond quite strongly. Although I don’t know much, I’ve found that theology from a native American or any other non-Euro-Western point of view challenges many of my Western notions of looking at and doing things. I always need that.
Does the answer really lie in the Gospels?
And when did the Christian white-man ever temper his thieving, plundering, rapacious behavior via reference to the Gospels or the Ten Commandments?
I am sure the native-Americans who wrote these references would entirely disagree with you.
http://nas.ucdavis.edu/Forbes/CANNIBALS.html
http://ili.nativeweb.org/sdrm_art.html
The white-man ALWAYS spoke with a forked tongue. And of course the thieving process still continues
Meanwhile this one stark image says all that needs to be said.
http://www.dartmouth.edu/~spanmod/mural/panel13.html
Andrew: Again, I’m not interested in hearing your views here. You need to learn how to reframe your presentation. If it appears to me that you are using our blog to propagate hateful historical reconstructions then I have the right to remove you. If your ideas have any merit, start a blog on the subject and let the readers come to you. If you can find a way to present your views without sounding asinine then work on that and we’ll see if what you write has intellectual merit.
John: I’m unsure of your point at all. The Gospels are Jewish in origin. Please tone it down and be fair or you will be blocked. Although there are probably some out there, I’ve yet to meet a “Christian white-man” who is “thieving, plundering, rapacious” or has “a forked tongue.” That is a little too unbelievable for me.
@JohnDave: The bible suggests that it was the Canannites who were ‘vomited’ out of the land (before the Israelites, and likely the Horites before the Edomites. My use of the expression, as I pointed out above, was biblical, not about N. American history as Brian assumed.
Whatever model you come from though JohnDave, [Deut 32:8] makes it clear that God sanctions land division and inheritance. So if we’re debating biblical views of land use, the European model of parcelling up land and owning it, is (strictly speaking) biblical. It may not be optimal, and it may be a function of our fallen state, but it is certainly not ‘un-biblical’.
With respect to my presuppositions, a long standing family friend is a N. American Mohawk from the Tyendinaga reserve, a loyalist to the British crown, and a self-made millionaire. I have no mis-conceptions about what N. American natives are capable of doing; both good and bad. But to simplify N. American history down to ‘the bad white-people wronged the noble savages’ is simply mis-guided 18th-19th century ‘small-L liberal’ misguided European thinking (wikipedia: Noble Savage).
This type of thinking does not do justice to the richness of either Native history, nor European history, and it is factually not correct. I do not deny that (some) Europeans wronged (some) native N. Americans, but I also accept that (some) also did great good. Likewise, I am well aware of traditional blood animosities, and ancient genocides that existed before the Europeans arrived (and brought the Gospel I might add); which are now apparently forgotten.
I will defend my right to correct mis-conceptions; even if it results in being silenced.
Andrew T.: I have no qualms with you correcting mis-conceptions. However, if you take a step back, you may see that your last paragraph about people complaining about equitable sharing in your first comment is ambiguous and could be construed as referring to the Natives. I can completely see why Brian understood it that way.
No, the European model is not biblical strictly speaking. The Europeans aren’t God. If it’s God who sanctions land, and the Europeans aren’t God or have gotten a direct command from God Himself (meaning we exclude the Mosaic covenant as a basis), then they’re not acting biblically.
All of this is getting away from the point of the post here where I’m pointing out that Koppisch is overstepping boundaries and forcing the American Dream upon people (a sense of our-way-is-the-best-way mentality) and that we should include more land studies in biblical and theological fields.
I certainly agree with you that more land studies in biblical and theological fields would be useful. However I did not say that Europeans were God or that they were the ones who sanctioned land division. I said that it was who God who sanctioned land division and inheritance, which is the model Europeans use. Just as you likely don’t expect me to defend the idea Europeans likely have gotten a direct command from God Himself (to do anything), I won’t expect you defend the idea they haven’t. So let us not speculate on how God exercises His providence.
The point is though, if (sovereign) God gives nations their inheritance, and divides mankind, and fixes the borders of peoples IAW [Deut 32:8] we cannot assume then, that God sat idly by as Europeans migrated to N. America, and could, or would do nothing (in other words had no involvement). We don’t exactly know what God’s plan is to spread the Gospel to all the earth to every creature [Mark 16:15-16]. We do know that is what He commanded. So there is a logical contradiction (I contend) in your argument if the sense of your claim is general. If you have specifics of how particular Natives have been wronged (by particular miscreants), you’ll get no argument from me.
WRT to forcing the American Dream on others as an unbiblical act: I’d agree with you, if by “American Dream” you mean the “Babylon” America has become, and if by “forcing it on others” you mean interfering (or directly influencing) their ‘internal affairs’. However, I’d reserve one caveat – that being that when another people’s foreign affairs have international consequences, any nation, including America, has the right to intervene, if their intervention results in establishment of “more biblical” standards such as a biblical respect for one’s neighbours. (I know that’s completely subjective – but anything that helps people ‘biblically’ love their neighbours as themselves, is likely good, right?).
i think you are right on John Dave. He who controls the land had the power and control. Gary Burge talks a bit about this in his book The Bible and the Land. Seems withregard to the problems in the Middle East the heart of all the conflict is the land. Whoever has control of the land (and the water) maintains the upper hand. What do you think?
Andrew:
Yes, we can be silent regarding God’s involvement or lack of involvement! God’s sovereignty is not one and the same with permissibility. Throughout the writings of the Hebrew prophets we see God using one group to judge another and then he still judges the group he used because of their excesses. This is mysterious and I think it should prevent us from waxing eloquent about how we know that Group A is justified in it’s treatment of Group B before God because if God allowed it he must be OK with it. This does not follow.
Likewise, we can affirm sovereignty without meticulous providence. Sure, God may allow injustices because he sees how shifts in geopolitics will impact the spread of the Gospel, but again, this does not deny injustices and the responsibility of those who did the injustices, even if God uses those injustices for some great purpose.
Fascinating topic. I have recently done a little amateur research on Native American history. It by no means makes me an expert, and no amount of research ever will, chiefly because I didn’t live in the history to which this post is referring.
Two minor points. First, by and large, the white people DID speak with a forked tongue, but not “always.” There are exceptions, beautiful ones, of white people who stood up and stood out, who didn’t participate in the oppression going on around them. That’s at least worth noting. Unfortunately though, the vast majority of white people and white governments were oppressive. And that makes my heart break. It also compels me to pause and check my motives.
Second, I have decided going forward that my best present posture toward Native American history and the land is to be a learner. People in fields such as Landscape Architecture (such as my wife) are learning a great deal about the land and how to care for it from people who were here before us. Native American practices regarding the land are informing land use and policy going forward, and not just because the whites are trying to right a wrong, but because it makes sense. Maybe the “noble savages” had it right all along.
@Ted:
Indeed, it is not that all Europeans are evil. Yet we cannot make more of the exception than the rule when it comes to how Europeans treated the natives of this land. What is more bothersome to me than one group or people going against another is that the Europeans were self-identified as “Christians” or at least many were. Their actions are contrary to Christian behavior and I find it especially sad to see someone like Andrew advocating theological views that justify their behavior.
I like your second paragraph a lot. Yes, we need to learn from our host. This was their land first and if anyone knows it they do.
Andrew: I’m glad we are beginning to come to agreement here, particularly about land studies. Brian already commented on speaking on the silence God’s involvement or lack thereof and I agree with him. To add to what Brian has said and in response to you, no one is assuming God’s idleness, and I think you’d agree it is difficult to know exactly where God is working in specific instances. What I don’t see is the logical contradiction you speak of. What I’m saying is that I don’t find a biblical model that advocates the plundering of land as Koppisch is advocating. The Europeans’ taking of others’ land, like that of the Natives, isn’t anywhere to be found in Scripture, particularly because the Bible’s only directives in land apportioning had to do with the countries of that time. Because the Bible isn’t speaking directly to Europeans’ taking of Native land, I will maintain that we also should keep a general degree of silence. I would agree with you that helping others towards biblical love is good. By the way, what is “WRT”?
Brian F.: Thanks for mentioning Burge’s book. It is one that sounds like I will have to read. You picked up on a key point about controlling the land, and I think that’s also what is going on here and in the Middle East. When I was in Kuwait, one of the big things that people would tell me was the enlarging of Kuwait’s border, regaining the land lost to the Iraqi invasion. So, I think control of the land is very much right on. It seems that is also that land control is a big theme in the Tanak. What specifics does Burge have in mind and does he speak to the current vying for the land in the Middle East?
Ted: This is a great perspective you bring. It’s true that there were problematic Europeans, but John seems to have overdone it and seems to apply the forked-tongue-ness to the mass of today’s Christians also. Your point about being a learner is a good one. In seminary, we have had discussions of Native theology and how we could benefit from them as ones who do not share the European theological framework. I admit that I have been uncomfortable with it at times and have and continue to wrestle with it. However, I always work at approaching the Native perspective as one seeking to understand before I begin to make up my mind about it.
“And when did the Christian white-man ever temper his thieving, plundering, rapacious behavior via reference to the Gospels or the Ten Commandments?”
Well, there’s Las Casas for one. He was a lone voice during his time, but he did succeed in at least moderating Spain’s worst excesses, and there were others after him.
Both the “innocent noble savages” and the “evil genocidal westerners” views are distortions of history. European/Indian relations were complex and varied, Indian culture was not always idyllic and peaceful, and there were many more deaths from disease than from violence.
At the same, though, there was still much evil done to the Indians by Europe and later America, and the fact that our crimes have sometimes been exaggerated does not mean they were not real or should be swept under the rug and forgotten.
On a related note, the problem I have with Eugene Cho’s post on Thanksgiving is that while things got worse, the first Thanksgiving actually WAS a time when Pilgrim and Indian relations were good and peaceful. The fact that we achieved this for a time should be celebrated, even if it was not sustained. Columbus Day would be a better time to mourn our crimes.
Joel: Thanks for pointing out the complexities of Euro-Native history and the distortions that can arise when it is simplified. I think your last paragraph of your first comment pertains to the point of the post in that the crime still exists and the Forbes writer appears to be an advocate of this crime, even if the crime is of a different type. Cho’s post was a little distorted, but raised good points as well. I agree with you that the first Thanksgiving is something to be celebrated and that it wasn’t simply because the Pilgrims felt that they should invite Natives for being helpful. That is a little too revisionistic for me.
@Joel, I feel the same way about Thanksgiving.
@Joel and @Ted: It is one thing for us to find Thanksgiving as a time that promotes mostly good memories, but the conversation on the matter cannot be satisfied without revisiting what it means to Native Americans. I think Cho’s post on that matter should create an awareness of this reality even though I disagreed with his idea of relocating the holiday on the calendar as a solution.
Oops, I left out that the view of the enlgihtened discoverers civilizing the brutal savages is also a distortion. Meant to write that the first time. Though that’s less common nowadays, but still there at times (like the continued deification of Columbus, even still teaching he proved the world was round).
Andrew T.,
I find your eisegesis hilarious. Tell me what you see wrong with this picture, okay?
Every Scripture you quotes is God directly talking to the ancient Israelites, concerning a particular group of people. It is not YHWH to the church filled with Gentiles and Jews. To refute your supersessionist reading of the Hebrew Bible, one only has to consider where the Gentile (our) place in the story, and our place in the Old Testament is the one where the Kenites, the Edomites, the Eygptians, and the Babylonians. God does distribute land and God does assign it to people, but to which, may I ask? The correct answer theologically are the Israelites. Not the Europeans, not the Africans, not the Native Americans.
Using the French Indian War to downplay the injustice that has been done, and is still being done to Native Americans is just being plain anti-intellectual and reconstructionist, Andrew. Even today, Christians are confessing their abusive ways on Christian missionary school at Indian reservations: http://www.q13fox.com/news/kcpq-historical-166m-settlement-for-jesuit-missionary-abuse-victims-20110325,0,1795334.story
This is just not a catholic/Jesuit problem, its an American Christian problem. Perhaps you have heard of the struggles of the American Indian Movement? And their protests in the 1960s and 70s? Why were they angry? Oh, because the government still owes the Native American community $45 billion due to treaties.
Your disregard of the particular histories of North America and the Ancient Near East have made, especially your case against Natives being victims going all the way up to the year 1812 is laughable, and convenient. Let’s just ignore what Andrew Jackson ordered or all the ugly portraits of Native Americans we have in the media. Let’s just turn a blind eye to the sin of racism all together. That would make your sovereign Calvinist god happy.
JD Ithink Burge talks more abou the land and its relation to the current conflict in his book Who’s Land , ho’s Promise. I haven’t read that one yet.
@Rod of Alexandria, I very much admire your passion. I’ve also read your blog. Unfortunately our views are likely far enough apart that we can’t find a whole lot of common ground in blog comment snippets, though it’s possible we could over coffee, with dialogue flowing freely. I will at least respond to your claim above respecting your response.
Of course God was speaking to the Israelites, that’s how we obtained the OT. The fact that the message was delivered to the Israelites does make it any less true. God is still ultimately responsible for giving nations their inheritance, dividing mankind, and fixing the borders of peoples IAW [Deut 32:8]. I cited [Deut 32:8] but [Acts 17:26] also says the same thing but also includes the idea that God also determines “..allotted periods” of a nation’s use of the land.
Therefore, I agree that God gave the Israelites land [Num 20:12,24][Num 27:12][Num 32:5-9], but you cannot argue that this benefit was restricted to just Israel (as you seem to be doing), given the verses above. He gave all nations land according to his sovereign will. For example, you can see God’s concern for the inheritance of non-Israelite nations in verses such as [Gen 36:43]. God appointed Edom their land [Deut 2:5][Deut 3:2], just as he did Moab theirs [Deut 2:9]. He also gave the people of Ammon their land [Deut 2:19]. This and [Deut 32:8][Acts 17:26] makes it clear that JohnDave’s claim “all land belongs to God” is true, and that He does with it as He wills.
You can also see that once possessed, a nation could lose its inheritance (because of idolatry), such as those who lost theirs to Israel [Numb 21:34], such as the Amorites [Deut 2:24]. Anticipating your response, I’ll point out that nations did not only lose their inheritance to Israel; for example God also gave the land of the Horites to the Edomites [Deut 2:12,22]. God punishes those nations He chooses to punish, and even Israel is not exempt from this: [Isa 1:7][Isa 6;11-12].
To summarize then, God blessed Israel (with land), just he has blessed all nations. Likewise, God removed Israel from their land as He has done to others.
WRT to the N. American natives; I’ll repeat – I don’t deny (some) European’s have wrong (some) Natives. You cite some examples. But if I were to start citing instances where interaction with the Europeans benefited the natives, and generalized that up to conclude that nothing bad has come of this – you would rightfully accuse me of the fallacy of ‘hasty generalization’. Or if I were cite instances of where natives have wrong natives and used this to conclude only natives have wronged natives, you would again rightfully accuse me of ‘hasty generalization’. This is exactly what your doing in your own argument. You’re citing instances of wrongs and extrapolating from there which is why I point out the fallacy of your thinking. I’m not going to bother addressing the merits of socialist movements of the 60’s/70’s such as the American Indian Movement, simply because they are debated and documented elsewhere (This would be quite a tangent, in any event).
Thus, your conclusion does not follow that European migration to N. America was something apart from God because this biblical view arises from God speaking to the Israelites.
Andrew T
“I’m not going to bother addressing the merits of socialist movements of the 60′s/70′s such as the American Indian Movement, simply because they are debated and documented elsewhere (This would be quite a tangent, in any event). ”
With such a view of history Andrew, I seriously doubt “it’s possible we could over coffee, with dialogue flowing freely”; responses such as yours make the possibility of dialogue fruitless, for it would turn into a set of monologues.
Again, your supersessionist hermeneutic puts Europe in the place of the Israelites, and your response proves that, and was quite predictable.
Thanks for playing.
Rod
Andrew T,
Let me just take on your “exegesis” for a second, that way you can see why everyone disagrees with you. Besides the fact that Israel is being addressed by YHWH solely in all of the Hebrew Bible verses you have cited, your argument lies on your belief that if something is in the Bible, it can serve as precedent for our actions today. I doubt that a reasonable person as you believe that Jepthah serves as a moral exemplar in today’s day and age, for example.
The importance of knowing our Gentile place in the Old Testament is a crucial one, for both interpreting the OT as well as the New Testament. Now, the New Testament in Galatians specifically says that God in Jesus has ended the hostilities between the Jews and Gentiles, the curse of the law (this includes the death penalties and wars against the Gentiles): http://politicaljesus.com/2011/06/12/christus-victor-galatians-3-messiah-conquers-curse-for-gentiles/ In addition, Paul and the apostles further understand the raising of Jesus from the dead as the event that breaks down the temple wall, the separation of Jews and Gentiles to make a new people group, Israel + the Church (Ephesians 2). Now, you can spiritualize the “barrier” part all you want, but the verse and the context of Ephesians 2 makes that unnecessary. Suffice to say, your position is reminiscent of the Jewish Christians who wanted to make circumcision necessary for Gentile participation in the household of God (Acts & Galatians). Persons who agree with your position want to live on as if the curse is still in place, when in fact, the curse has been removed by the Prince of Peace.
Hope you can see where I am coming from at least.
Andrew: I think I understand what you’re saying, but you have to jump hurdles to apply it to today. We can speak of specifics about what happened in the Ancient Near East because we find those specifics in the Bible with God speaking through the prophets about them. However, it’s shaky to apply it today because we just don’t exactly know what God is doing. In fact, you seem to recognize this when you say that we shouldn’t “speculate on how God exercises His providence.”
Rod: Excellent presentation of why we all disagree with Andrew. Your points in your second paragraph are one especially worth considering. I’m interested to see what Andrew’s thoughts would be to them.
Rod, two quick things; first, for the record, I’m not a supersessionist. As far as I can tell, when God says “And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your offspring after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your offspring after you.” – everlasting means forever. Therefore I deny the central tenet of supersessionism.
Second, neither the number of people who agree that something is true, nor the number of people who disagree and believe it to be false, has any influence over the truth of the matter. It is possible for something to be true, yet thought false by the entire world (as Jesus showed). This type of thinking is another type of fallacious reasoning; Argumentum ad populum.
Although you may look to the opinion of others to define ‘truth’, I resist that temptation.
Andrew T,
“Although you may look to the opinion of others to define ‘truth’, I resist that temptation.”
I find this comment hilarious, especially since you claim that you have read my blog. You’d know I’m a nonconformist and don’t look for majorities on anything. My comments about people who agree with me are just a commentary for this blog post, meaning, the specific people who disagree with you on this blog post. That’s all.Don’t read too much into those comments. But then again, I take a look at your “exegesis”….
Rod, yes, I appreciated the irony of a ‘nonconformist’ suggesting I conform.
Andrew T.,
The comment is not about you, it’s simply about me. I don’t know what else you believe. I just disagree with you and your understanding of God’s order specifically to Israel about how to deal with other Ancient Near Eastern city-states.
Hey, but don’t bother to deal with the text or its particularity, or addressing how The Curse is now broken as I have demonstrated. Just make it personal, and only about you you you. That’s the way to conduct a debate.