I might have the opportunity to discuss the movie The Help with John Perry and Ken Taylor of Philosophy Talk for their upcoming 2012 Dionysus Awards episode where they discuss the most philosophical movies of the last year. I will find out in a week or so if I am chosen. When they asked for submissions I proposed The Help because it presents interesting insights into race relations and how people of different races interpret stories. Even if I don’t get this opportunity I thought it would be something worth discussing here if you’ve seen the film or read the book.
I apologize beforehand regarding these generalizations, but they are the best way I know to compare how different people groups/audiences interpreted the film:
If you self-identify as being of European descent please tell me and answer these questions:
(1) Did you enjoy the movie?
(2) Did you think it was a fair depiction of race relations in the United States at that time?
(3) Did you identify Skeeter Phelan who combated racism or the others who promoted it?
If you self-identify as being of African descent please tell me and answer these questions:
(1) Did you enjoy the movie?
(2) Did you think it was a fair depiction of race relations in the United States at that time?
(3) How did you feel about the primary character being Skeeter Phelan (the journalist)? Or did you view one of the other characters as the primary character of the story?
If you self-identity as being of some other descent please tell me and answer these questions:
(1) Did you enjoy the movie?
(2) Did you think it was a fair depiction of race relations at that time?
(3) Did you feel connected or disconnected to the story and the characters?
There are no wrong answers here. I know this is very subjective and I’d like to hear your thoughts.
the archives near Emmaus 
1) Not really (I’m white)
2) I didn’t like the film because I thought that it was an attempt to help everyone feel OK about what happened in the south during the civil rights movement. None of the characters are meant to be related to by a white viewer other than Skeeter and the couple that live outside of town – I think that we are all meant to read ourselves into them (akin to “yeah, I would have been nice, too.”). The problem is, that tends to make us look back on that time with nostalgia and pride (in what we would have done) through these types of characters rather than disgust over the passivity of the southern whites (everyone else in the movie). So, I don’t think that it was a correct depiction of race relations as far as the white protagonists are concerned.
3) Yes, but I think that it was because her character is an anachronism…like a 21st c. person dropped back into the setting. I didn’t see her as realistic for the era, but I certainly related to her.
@BLP: As an aside, you may find this article interesting for your panel. It was written for Salon and mentions The Help among other things in the author’s argument about why we have a difficult time speaking about slavery today (whereas Germany has publicly worked through its own involvement in genocide in a very public way). I found that it captured a lot of my feelings bout living in the south for awhile and watching the movie into words. Too much to write here, but the article may be of help to you. http://www.salon.com/2011/12/27/why_we_still_cant_talk_about_slavery/
European descent
(1) Did you enjoy the movie? Yes
(2) Did you think it was a fair depiction of race relations in the United States at that time?
Yes. Some scenes seem to be more intense and compact than real life, but it got the general idea.
(3) Did you identify Skeeter Phelan who combated racism or the others who promoted it? A little of both, but mostly Skeeter. I was a teenager during the main parts of the civil rights movement, but even at that age I could see that there was a problem and racism was wrong. However, being on the other side, I generally kept my opinions to myself, especially since many authority figures in my life, even from church, were generally racist and were interested in keeping the status quo with them on top.
@Brian and John:
Thank you for sharing your insights! I would if the difference in your views has to do with generational perspectives. Very interesting.
(1) Did you enjoy the movie? Yes and no. I walked away from it proud of how far civil rights have come and hoping that things will get better, but at the same time I watched it like someone sitting in a dentist’s chair and in a mirror watching the dentist go to work. I was glad to be watching it but it made me squirm.
(2) Did you think it was a fair depiction of race relations in the United States at that time? I didn’t live during the Civil Rights era (well, hopefully we are still in the Civil Rights Era!), but it seemed like a fair description of how things happened in the south. I’ve lived in Alabama most of my life and am shocked at the things I see now. I know of church leaders who *seem* to be fine with African Americans attending their services, but will not help them with food, money because “they know how those people are.” Shameful and disgusting.
(3) Did you identify Skeeter Phelan who combated racism or the others who promoted it? Both. I wanted to identify with Skeeter and idealized myself as being right there with the freedom fighters, but given my family’s history (all from Alabama for generations) I probably would’ve been like some of the racist characters (whose names I can’t recall). Best case scenario, I would have been passive and walked by like the priest and Levite. That is why I felt like I was in a dentist’s chair.
Overall, the film made me proud of how far minorities have come in the past few decades but it also made me ashamed and guilty of my heritage. Like Nehemiah, I confess the sins of my fathers.
@Matthew:
I think I saw the film through a similar lens as you did. Though my family was not in the south there is no denying “white privilege” in this country. I felt relieved that things are somewhat better and motivated to continue to fight. On the other hand, it reminded me that there is much that I do (though often unaware) that contributed to the plight of minorities in our nation in a negative way.
(1) I did not enjoy the movie but I am glad I watched it. It was a painful reminder of the way things were.
(2) Having been born in 1951 and raised in the South I experienced the times firsthand. While there are stereotypes and exaggerations in the movie, its general depiction of segregation and its ugliness is accurate – and that’s why it’s a painful reminder.
(3) This is where the stereotypes and exaggerations come in. The actual “good guys” weren’t as good as the movie depicted and the actual “bad guys” weren’t as bad as the movie depicted. I suppose that just goes with movie-making or even story-telling. I get the feeling that most current day moviegoers assume they would have done “the right thing.” And yet, as Jesus implied, moral courage is infinitely easier to recognize in retrospect than it is to exemplify in the present (Matt 23:29-31).
I want to comment even though I haven’t seen the movie. I read the book and hope that counts. 😉
I am of other descent.
(1) Did you enjoy the movie?
The book was great. I couldn’t put it down and was disappointed when it was over. The characters were compelling – even the ones I didn’t like, I knew them.
(2) Did you think it was a fair depiction of race relations at that time?
I was a little girl at the time. But based on my upbringing, I imagine it was a fairly good depiction. I’m sure it was exaggerated in parts. Most novels are. I’d be more concerned about that if it were a biography or factual depiction. Mike is right about the extremes.
(3) Did you feel connected or disconnected to the story and the characters?
I answered that in (1). I felt connected to Skeeter and what she was trying to do. I felt connected to her because her prejudiced mama could have been my own. I absolutely ached for Mae Mobley. And I so wanted to help Miss Celia myself But the character I thought about the most was Lou Anne Templeton and it doesn’t look like she made the movie. She was definitely secondary, but very brave and terribly hurting. Great character with a tremendous amount of compassion that wasn’t readily seen.
@Mike:
Thank you for the feedback! It is interesting that you and Bitsy both emphasize the exaggerated characters. Obviously some people are demonized by the story and you find them more human than depicted. What do you think allowed seemingly kind folk to have such horrible misconceptions about blacks?
@Bitsy: You are the first of non-European background to comment. I find it interesting that you seemed to connect with a variety of characters. Do you think that this sheds some light on how other people groups self-identify in a country that has been captivated by white-black relations?
African-American
(1) Overall, I liked it. Honestly, I kept in mind the fact that frankly, it was based on a book written by a white woman for a white (female) audience.
(2) I didn’t live back then (thank God), so I don’t know, but I think it made a fair attempt to realistically depict race relations at the time. The result was definitely sentimentalized and some characters (both black and white) were exaggerated types rather than real people, but in my opinion, those flaws aren’t cause to vilify the whole thing.
(3) I didn’t have any particular feelings one way or the other about Skeeter being the main character. And she definitely was the main character. Again, I kept in mind the writer and the audience.
Brian, I have thought often about your question. While I don’t have a complete answer I feel that peer pressure (societal mores) have a lot to do with it. We typically think of peer pressure as affecting only teenagers, but that is just the beginning of a lifelong pressure to “go along with the way things are.” Adults want approval from others, whether that be from people in general or from one’s chosen group identity. Thus, if a person is a racist in 2012, he is definitely going against societal grain; that was not the case in 1965 in the American South. Therefore, it was easier to be a racist in the 1960’s South because there was greater temptation to be so. It made you fit with the crowd. To resist racism made you stand apart from the crowd and feel lonely. Therefore, if we want to compare ourselves to people in the movie to see where we come out on the moral courage scale we should pick an issue other than racism to make the comparison. That is, think of what sin society does not consider a sin today – and then ask yourself if you are taking a principled stand against that sin. If you are, it is costing you – in terms of social acceptance and in other ways, sometimes economic. This cost can be small or great depending on the seriousness of the sin and the strength of grip it has on society at large – or the subset of society that is important to you.
My father was a racist, and I have never completely understood why. In every other aspect of outlook he was a fair and just man – well above average in that regard. He had compassion on the weak, and was not one easily swayed by the crowd’s opinion. Moreover, he could be compassionate to the individual black person – but as a race he distinguished them from whites and looked down on them. It makes me sad just to remember him in this way. I was a teenager during the civil rights era and underwent the rebellion against my father that many firstborn teenage boys do. One of the biggest issues my father and I fought about was civil rights for blacks. For me, it was intuitive that all races were equal and deserved equal treatment. For him it was intuitive that all races were not equal and did not deserve equal treatment. How can it be that what came so naturally to him came so unnaturally to me? If the answer is simple, I’m too close to the situation to see it. We never fully reconciled on this issue. He died in 2000.
Therefore, when I think about “The Help” I don’t focus on racism. Rather, I ask the Lord, “What sin am I blind to today because of my conditioning, my ingrained outlook, or the pressure of those whose approval I seek?” I ask also for strength to resist the temptation to that sin. Life is meant to be a moral journey and only when we are content with the fellowship of God alone can we know that we are wiling to pay the price necessary to do what is right when the cost is higher than we think we can afford.
There are more nuances to this issue as depicted in the movie than I can address here. Nor have I adequately described even what I’ve attempted to describe. Nevertheless, I happily testify that when we take a stand for what is right, seeking no support group for our decision but the Lord alone, then we can know something of the lonely stand He took to do what was right 2,000 years ago on our behalf.
@Chantell:
Thank you for sharing your perspective! It seems like your experience would leave you feeling a bit marginalized by the story. It puts blacks in the background to the white messiah in many ways.
@Mike:
Indeed, it is easy to judge in retrospect. I imagine future generations (depending on where the chips fall) may judge us regarding abortion, gay marriage, our involvement in various wars, and so forth. While we are in the heat of the debate it is harder to know what to do then it may appear for people two or three generations from now.
he book is not a history textbook, striving to give accurate details of everything that happened during that period. This is why there are exaggerations of characters, a common literary device, and even story-telling tool.
I honestly don’t get the backlash that the lead character is a white, forward-thinking girl, who began to relate to the plight of black people, and together, with some brave black women, began to upturn some of the ugliness of racism together. They didn’t march to Washington. That wasn’t the point. They didn’t win the war on racism. That wasn’t the point either. Showing racial harmony, people working together, doing the right thing even though it cost you (all the characters had risk involved) and leaving humbled about our capacity for evil, but inspired about our potential for justice — that’s what The Help did for me.
Why some groups turn a movie like this back into a race war is beyond me. That they interpret it as White Dominance. While white characters leading the Civil Rights charge is certainly an extreme minority, they were there. They were out there. Many paying a heavy price, giving up the luxury of “white privilege,” and joining arms on marches, and pressing the matter toward public opinion. The protests, to me, come off as petty and trite, and are a stark contrast to what seemed like the purpose of the book to me. Instead of bringing people together, it wants to push them away. So what if a mostly-white audience identified with Skeeter, and her ideas, and dreams about equality?
We could use more movies and books like The Help on our shelves. Not to ignore or re-write history, but to give people a way out of the ugliness and to inspire them to dream something much more hopeful — “the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slave-owners will be able to sit down together at a table of brotherhood.”
@James:
I think you need to look beyond this singular film to the message Hollywood has sent to African American viewers for some time now. I’ve seen some films like ‘Dangerous Minds’, ‘Freedom Writers’, ‘The Blind Side’, and others mentioned. It is rare for see a film that depicts the African American story in such a way that they are not either the oppressed or the rescued. If you watched film after film after film where the people who enslaved your people group are the focus of their salvation as well (the white messiah) you’d likely tire of it as well.
We of European decent like this film because it shows us at our better angle. Yet this isn’t the whole story. We have a sad, sad history of relating to not only those of African heritage, but North American and Asian. We are less likely to tell the stories that confess our sins than we are to tell those of how we “awoke” to our faults, but “fixed” them. In a culture where racial oppression still exists it comes across as disingenuous to tell stories about how it was “back then” as if we’ve healed the wounds now and it is time for everyone to move along cheerily into a “post-racial” world.
Shelby Steele would call that flat out white guilt, Brian.
The reality is, there is a picture of both oppression and rescue in the last 200 years especially. The other reality is Americans, who consisted of mostly Europeans (caucasians) acted out in ignorant and disgusting ways the last 200 years, particularly toward people groups they weren’t familiar with (Asians, Blacks, South Americans, Native Americans, etc). While we still live with the residue and results of that evil, there’s many of people who refuse to sit back and accept that guilt for transgressions they have nothing personally to do with — not even of their generation. This neither means they are opposed to recognizing the injustices present, including spiritual oppression, and working to make the world a better place for all people, in the spirit of MLK, Jr.
Movies, in general, are a profit-venture, that has much to do with audiences that buy movies. The average movie goer is most likely white. If we got to India, the demographics are different. Is this unjust? I don’t know, but there is a “market explanation,” not just a conspiracy of injustice. That said, we live in a day where we’ve never seen such progress and mobility among races: from professional coaches, lead heroines of movies, directors, CEO’s and politics. I live in a city with an Asian mayor, a country with a Black President and a company with a female CEO. Unprecedented times. I celebrate that. Is there still rampant injustice and progress yet to be done? Certainly. There’s plenty, both racial and otherwise. But if our tone lives constantly in the past, we can’t move forward.
I explained why I liked the film, and I don’t think it’s fair to project that all white people like the film because “it makes white people look good.” That’s projecting, plain and simple.
Again this movie wasn’t a linear historical tale — it is centered in history, and borrows from the struggles and themes. But the feeling is hope, reconciliation, togetherness, unity, and doing the right thing even when it costs us something; not advocacy of apathy and ears-plugged to any current realities. I don’t see that at all. It’s a false dichotomy.
The Black Community, as a demographic and people group — coincidentally that I grew up with and went to school (my middle school was easily 80% black, and probably less than 5% white) needs to hear more stories of “ways forward” than anything else…. there’s plenty of built-in oppression, systemic injustice, music promoting the only way out to be illegal and shameful lifestyles — they need to hear hope.
Now, maybe you could argue that the White Community needs less hope, but I simply disagree — even though it would be good for some that I know in other parts of the country could use an education in the reality and depth of what poverty really is — including how powerful oppression is, and the injustice existent in some of these people groups… I think there’s a place for that.
But to have such a beautiful movie come out in theaters to be greeted by protesting and critique filled with charges of racism and inequality just doesn’t sound right to me. All things are open for discussion, and I can respect contrary opinions, but it just seems unfair to me.
(Oh, and I could still name dozens of movies that had black lead characters portrayed as both heroes and villains)
@James:
And I would call your citation of Steele “assumed universal experience” (i.e. you chose a favorite minority voice to side with your presupposition). One voice doesn’t silence whole communities.
Also, white guilt makes little sense when applied to a white person who realizes his privileged place in society and who know there is endless work to be done before we come anywhere close to racial equality. White guilt is best placed in actions of repression and defensiveness, like your entire comment.
To act as if past transgressions don’t impact present realities is to act in ignorance–whether intentional or accidental. To act as if Dr. King would want us to “pretend” that things like white privilege don’t exist is an offense to his memory. What is wrong with being honest and saying, “Yes, my people have done great injustices! Yes, my people have benefited from the slavery and oppression of others! Yes, I benefit from it even today! What can I can do bring healing?”
To compare the United States to India is to miss the point altogether. Our history is not their history. You must use an example of a national history where one group has had a long standing relationship of oppression with another group for the parallels to make sense. If you can find examples within Indian society that would be more useful.
It isn’t merely projection. It is the result of conversation about the movie. Many white (when self-reflecting) realize why they identified with the main character. For many there was a desire to see more racial equality and that is wonderful, but we liked the movie because we are the hero. Your response is a good example of how whites react when they are not given this place in the story.
It isn’t that the white community need less “hope”. It is that the white community needs more realism. Pretty simple.
The movie is beautiful in some senses, sure, but to be upset that people have rightly criticized it is to ignore the time in which you live. Please, please, don’t do a head count on black heroes, especially in movies dealing with racial injustices. Naming “dozens” of movies means nothing in percentage. Giving the excuse the whites are more likely to pay for movie doesn’t mean we shouldn’t critically reexamine the stories we are telling because those stories continue to shape our view of reality and that of generations to come.
Of course I appealed to him… he’s the first person that came up on a Google search of “White Guilt.” And had I used a white voice, I could be accused of harboring secret racism or something or other. Race is a fickle topic.
“White guilt is best placed in actions of repression and defensiveness, like your entire comment.”
I think you come off a little unnecessarily strong and accusative in an area and topic where you don’t know me well enough. Repression and defensiveness? You telling me I like a film because “I like how it makes white people look” is categorically false. Pardon me for speaking for myself.
No one has suggested “white privilege doesn’t exist.” That’s nonsense.
BRIAN SAID: What is wrong with being honest and saying, “Yes, my people have done great injustices! Yes, my people have benefited from the slavery and oppression of others! Yes, I benefit from it even today! What can I can do bring healing?”
Again, I’m borderline offended. Who says I don’t see it that way? Maybe I’m not at the same level as you, but I find it frankly self-righteous and a little pompous to direct remarks at me in that way. I have a story too, and my race does not tell the whole story. I’m interested in healing in multiple areas, not just this issue. I refuse to live in guilt as my motivation — I’d rather have love as my motivation — which it is.
I just don’t find posters being posted that are racially aggressive like the one going around Facebook to be anything that reconciles and eases racial tensions. I don’t find that to be in the spirit of Dr. King, but I guess we all just borrow historians to tell our arguments.
Movies, regardless of The Help, like stories that end in happiness, with some sort of redemption, of hope, of happiness. This story follows the same theme.
Critique the film. Have at it. But don’t project a few men’s opinions you interviewed on all white men, and make wide generalizations that we viewed the movie in the same lens. That’s preposterous.
I find the movie to be a positive contribution to Hollywood movies, and something I was proud to see at the Box Office.
By the way, The Help, didn’t make it its goal to pretend that “all in the world is right.” That wasn’t the focus of the movie. I’m not sure if we will ever get to a point, prior to Resurrection, when “all will be right.” But we can certainly celebrate, paint the picture, dream and imagine that world — even in small examples along the way. Some call that “hiding from reality,” I guess I disagree.
@James:
When I see a white person become defensive regarding race-relations, and their posture is one of self-justification rather than humble listening, it is evident that they are the one who hasn’t come to terms with their privileged place in society. We whites have it easy compared to minorities (as a whole). To become so irritated that people (especially African Americans) would not buy the whole message of The Help sends a very, very strong message to me (whether conscious or unconscious) that a given white person has not resolved to listen, reflect, and adapt to the concerns on others.
Ask yourself if you were a minority who still faces great, great inequalities if the message of “Remember back then…wow, I’m glad that is over.” resonates with you or troubles you. If it isn’t over for many people it isn’t over.
When I watched the movie I liked it. It wasn’t until a African American woman made some comments in the theater immediately following that I asked myself if I was missing something. I decided to engage what other voices were saying and I realized unbeknowst to me that it was not a story that was seen the same way through their eyes. It hasn’t dawned on me how hard it must be to hear this same metanarrative over and over and over again as a Black man or woman. I have Black friends who refuse to watch the film.
So if you believe you benefit from white privilege and you are aware that there is much, much more work to do in race relations, why the present posture?
Things that criticize and jab the movie do so rightly if that is the message that many receive. It is just like Avatar last year (or the year before…whenever) where many thought it was a great story, but others saw the same metanarrative of white imperialism v. white messianism. The film did a good thing. It brought race up and I appreciate that. And it made many more whites aware of the need to continue the struggle toward equality. That is good as well.
But before you can say it is a “few men” start having discussions…and not just with a white person or even a black person that you know will reinforce your presuppositions. Ask someone why they dislike the movie and find out why this movie troubled them. Give an open ear to minorities peoples who you know didn’t like the film.
To frame it as hope and love v. guilt-driven motivation is misleading. I don’t feel guilty, but I do accept responsibility and I do recognize that I have benefited from the oppression of the past. I don’t walk around ashamed to be white, but I am sure not going to ignore the responsibility that comes with being part of a majority people in a given society.
Brian,
I have a different opinion than you do. I hate to see you engage in demonizing other’s opinions, jumping to psychological conclusions about my “coming to terms,” etc. I could say your posture in this post is equally defensive, and a little out-of-place for what is your normal tactfulness in listening to and exchanging ideas.
Some blacks loved the film. Some hated it. Some whites loved the film. Some hated it. I haven’t taken up the emotional cause of every critic, and I reserve the right to have my own opinion about thing.
I don’t have to set out to prove how much, and to what degree, I loathe my “white privilege.” That I’m aware of the set-backs caused by slavery and racism is a reality. That I don’t reach the same practical or emotional solutions as others who do, and who make it their cause in life is evident.
Furthermore, my guilt, which I feel more collectively than personally, is one shared my humanity. All humans who support systems of injustice.
I didn’t choose to grow up in a white lower-class home.
I didn’t choose to be a healthy baby, not born with severe disabilities.
I didn’t choose to have a blended family (ie, parents who never married, etc)
I didn’t choose to grow up around violence, bigotry and racism (from every human category — including black on white, white on black, and all the other races that usually get skipped at this point)
I didn’t choose to be born in a family where college was a foreign language — no one hardly graduated HS.
Many others didn’t choose to be subjected to abuse (emotional, sexual, etc)
Many others didn’t choose they they live in one of the wealthiest countries in the world, and not in Somalia or Afghanistan.
The list of “privilege” is one shared, at some level, by most humans.
I don’t carry around guilt. I’m sure that enrages you. I don’t self-righteously pour it out on others either. I’m happy to learn more about, look at, examine the areas of injustice more closely (including the areas of media bias, etc). I’m much more anxious to hear solutions. But I refuse to be burdened by what is an epidemic among white liberals everywhere. I’m usually quite sympathetic to liberal causes, but I reserve the right to disagree and have an opinion, no matter conservative, liberal. I agree there are systemic injustices, and that it’s not all just on families, and “try harder” attitude. I’m with you there.
Moving forward, we shouldn’t be looking for black heroes, white heroes, asian heroes or latino heroes (et al), but we should applaud anything that brings people together for the sake of justice. You told me not to name the movies or media with black heroes, and somewhat scoffed at the notion, comparing it almost to a white man charged of racism that awkwardly points out all the black friends he has. That’s the sort of attitude that makes it hard to move forward. We can’t point out and celebrate anything that is not a majority. We cannot celebrate it along the way, as a “way forward.”
And I’m sorry, but I don’t go to a movie looking to make sure the cast is racially diverse, and nor am I looking to see less white lead characters to appease any guilt I’m supposed to have.
People with racial axes to grind drive others nuts. You will see what you are looking for. White conservatives saw Avatar as a New Age, environmentalist, white imperial guilt propaganda. Ironically, it sounds like the white liberals used it as another example of what they call “the white messiah.” There’s no winning here. There’s no moving forward here.
We are humans. We share the brokenness together. Posters that mock white people, no matter how you justify it, do not speak love, reconciliation or hope.
“I don’t walk around ashamed to be white, but I am sure not going to ignore the responsibility that comes with being part of a majority people in a given society.” I agree. And I even understand that “majority” is not a population census, but all about power. I get that. But riding on guilt-laden racial-baiting to “make all things right” just seems like going about it the wrong way. Love and understanding is a much better motivation.
And surely you see the inconsistency of “I have black friends that refuse to watch the film” and me citing black people in favor of the film, or that critique white liberalism regarding race, to be an unfair criticism. What’s good for the goose, must be good for the gander.
And, so I’m not just talking over you, I do accept and believe what you said about not feeling guilty. It’s just the way the subject often gets framed. And whoa to the white guy that disagrees!
Even those this is about justice and injustice, and the still-sensitive topic of race, there is still plenty of room and space for different opinions, diagnosis and solutions. At least I see it that way.
James
Again, I ask you to give yourself the opportunity to listen to the voices of those who didn’t like the film. I don’t understand why you are such an apologist. You have nothing to lose by giving other voices a hearing. You are not receiving a paycheck to do PR.
I reference my awareness of African Americans being discontent with the film not to say that this means the African American community has one voice in the matter, but to remind you that there are minority groups who find discontent with the message of the film. You want to act like some African Americans not being rebuffed by its message means it is a mute issue. This isn’t the case.
That is all I have to say to you on this matter.
I am not against “listening to the voices.” That wasn’t the heart of what we just discussed back-and-forth. What is it you are rhetorically accusing me of pretending to be an apologist for? I don’t get where you are coming from at all with that.
I’m giving an opinion — just as others have done. And I felt there was an unusual emotional backlash for that, instead of the usual clear-headed conversation.
And if there was any defensiveness on my part, it was against the attack of someone projecting into my own heart and motivation (see the plethora of commentary you added above that was quite personal). And yes, it was projecting — even if you had a couple conversations with some other white guys that shared the same opinion as you, to throw that on me with such surety, is the epitome of projecting.
Your concluding words say plenty. I’m sorry this conversation has gone the way it has.
Brian,
While I don’t fully understand all the points James W is wanting to make, and don’t necessarily agree with all the ones I do understand, I must say that he has a strong overall point. That is, your response to him is out of character for you. You seem to be cubbyholing his opinion into a preconceived category you hold. Specifically, you’ve accused him of not listening…and based on all that he’s said, I agree with him that this doesn’t seem fair.
As I think you yourself have said, there are many nuances of racial opinion even within a given ethnic group – not to mention between the groups themselves. I was talking with a Korean-American the other day whose primary takeaway from the movie was that both blacks and whites today are too caught up in that past. Her point was that we’re in a different place now and need to deal with that, not where we were.
One of the hardest charges for a white person to defend himself from these days is the charge of being a racist. That’s like the old question about “Have you stopped beating your wife?” James W sounds like white person who is tired of being assigned a stereotyped opinion instead of being allowed to have his own. Your normal manner is to respect such a position, not be put off by it.
James
As I said above I don’t have much more to say to you on this matter. You have no intention of rethinking what you’ve said or how you’ve said it. You’ve restated yourself again and again on this matter. I know that some people see things differently and I am more than satisfied with you going your direction while I go mine.