I was in a conversation with someone on Facebook about “today” in Luke 23:43.
And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.” (NASB)
This person’s explanation tends toward a non-tenable position, namely using “today” in Hebrews 3 to define “today” in Luke 23. As I was pondering on the Lukan verse, I recalled a forum debate on “today” that I read a few years back.
This older debate was a syntactical one dealing with the question of what “today” modified. That is, in Luke 23:43, did Jesus mean “Truly I say to you today that you will be with me in paradise” (leading to the implication that the thief—and possibly even Jesus—did not go to paradise at death) or did he mean “Truly I say to you that today you will be with me in paradise”? (I recognize that the indirect discourse marker “that” is not present in the text itself, but it makes it easier to convey what I am saying.)
A cursory search through the gospels shows that this is the only occurrence in Luke of “Truly I say to you” with the singular dative and is in the minority of occurrences where the discourse marker ὅτι does not appear with this clause. It is a unique case already.
Reasons for “Truly I say to you today”: Only in one other place I found “today” modifying a present indicative verb is in Luke 13:32 and this occurs in a discourse, like the verse in question. In at least one place where “today” modified a future indicative verb, it also occurred in a discourse, but came after the verb, unlike the verse in question.
A reason for “Today you will be with me in paradise”: From a broader look, it appears that what follows after “Truly I say to you” is the discourse, whether it is introduced by the discourse marker ὅτι or not. Of all the occurrences of “truly I say to you,” this would be the only one where the verb “I say” is modified by an adverb (at least, from what I have found) and makes the possibility “Truly I say to you today” something of an oddity.
My own conclusion is that the text is ambiguous. If I had to take a position, I would go with “today you will be with me in paradise” due to the overwhelming lack of modification of the verb in “truly I say to you.” I do, however, recognize that “Truly I say to you today” is an equally possible understanding.
the archives near Emmaus 
As is often the case, the proper understanding is incredibly simple…
“Today” Jesus would be in a **garden** of a rich man. He would not be “in heaven” (which, I hate to break it to you, just means “the sky”). So Jesus was promising his death. “You, my friend, just like me, are going to die today. But don’t worry, I’ll be with you.”
This alludes to:
Ps 23:4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.
“The lord” here is not YHVH (who is about to cede the title to a human), but rather Jesus, who obtains the title a few days later.
“Paradise” just means “really nifty garden.”
I think what I said in my post is incredibly simple as to what I was and was not talking about. You’ll notice that I was talking about syntax. You’ll notice that I wasn’t talking about gardens or when Jesus received a title.
>>>..You’ll notice that I was talking about syntax…
Didn’t notice. But I was “cutting to the chase.”
JohnDave,
One thing that would tilt me toward translating this as “Today you will be with me…” rather than “Amen, I say to you today…” is how σοι λέγω functions. Each occurrence is prior to the statement being made (Prov. 31.2, LXX; Mt. 16.18; Mk. 2.11; 5.41; Lk. 5.24; 7.14). Immediately following λέγω is the thing being said. I think we are safe to assume this is the case with Lk. 23.43 as well.
John,
This is an excellent post, so I decided to do a spin-off.
WoundedEgo,
Haha. There really isn’t a chase to cut to if you’re going to talk about definitions of gardens and reception of titles. The “chase” here is what “today” modifies.
Brian,
Great point. I didn’t consider σοὶ λέγω alone (I included ἀμὴν) when I did my searches, but yes it is quite clear that what immediately follows is what is said. I still think that the placement of σήμερον in Luke 23:43 can be taken to modify either λέγω or ἔσῃ, as other similar sentence constructions do not make it clear how σήμερον is used. The reasons I gave for “Truly I say to you today” are based on placement of σήμερον: a search turns up at least one instance where it comes after the present indicative verb it modifies, like with λέγω: and in at least one place it comes after the future verb it modifies, unlike in Luke. Actually I cannot recall if I ever found a place where σήμερον comes before the future indicative verb it modifies.
Like you, I still tend to side with “today you will be with me in paradise,” particularly because with every occurrence of the phrase ἀμὴν σοὶ λέγω what is said follows immediately after. This seems to be strengthened with your observation concerning σοὶ λέγω alone. Not only that, but most (if not all) major valid translations go that way as well: NASB, ESV, (N)KJV, NLT, HCSB, (N)RSV, etc.
TC,
Thanks! That is much appreciated.
Not to mention, the other option would just be kind of an odd thing to say! 🙂
Crystal,
Haha. Indeed! 🙂
John,
As much as I hate to admit this at times it is a very strong point if that many English translations are in sync.
This has been discussed on b-greek, with no credence given to the “I say to you today, You will be…”
You should be able to search for it in the archives.
Um, I would be interested to know where you each understand that Jesus was later that day. Wasn’t he dead, and lying in a garden? Who here thinks he was eating pomegrantes in the sky?
Again, as John said, you are off topic.
Were you saying that where Jesus was after he said “today you will be with me in paradise” is off topic?
I think that, all other considerations aside, Crystal’s point is perhaps the most germane to the entire discussion. As a matter of fact, all grammatical and syntactical observations only serve to underscore the fact of just how awkward it would be to understand σήμερον as modifying λέγω. That would be a terribly odd thing to say, and only the worst kind of atomistic overinterpretation would read it in such a way. Thus I think this exercise is also a warning about the dangers of the sort of atomistic interpretation that emphasizes words and clauses at the expense of discourse, and also about the reprehensible tendency to read Greek (or Hebrew or Latin or whatever) as cryptic and undecipherable linguistic concoctions, and not as living languages with natural (and unnatural!) ways of saying things.
WE: Yes. This is a syntax discussion. An interpretative discussion. It is not a theological discussion.
Esteban: Very true. Sometimes the more “common sense” a translation would be the better it is to go that direction.
Are there any Greek speakers among us?
Brian: Yes, a translation majority seems to lends some weight here.
WoundedEgo: Thanks for the b-greek resource. I will have to do a search through it to read some of their reasons on this. Also, Brian is right—this isn’t a theological discussion but a syntactical one. I tend to stick to the major discussion at hand, since bunny trails tend to go all over the place. I don’t know about you, but I don’t have the time to follow them all.
Esteban: I think that the two observations I made in the gospels—the modification of a present indicative verb immediately followed by σήμερον and there being hardly any other instances that I can recall of σήμερον coming before a future indicative verb that it modifies—does leave open the possibility that σήμερον can modify λέγω. So I don’t think “Truly I say to you today that . . .” is completely awkward, except if it weren’t for the broader usage of “Truly I say to you” clauses elsewhere. Your point about the warning of overly minute detail interpretation is well taken, and I am in complete agreement with you there.
>>>…Your point about the warning of overly minute detail interpretation is well taken, and I am in complete agreement with you there.
I’m as qualified as the next guy to learn new things by reading the Greek but my experience with languages in general informs me that questions like this are not solved by academics, for whom the dead language was learned as an adult, but for those who have enough experience with the Greek language in actual, life experience, to have some sense of what one would or would not say.
Yeah, we can jumble around syntax as if it were Lego blocks, but native speakers speak in more expected formulations. “Verily I say to you today,” even to my limited experience, rings false – like a tin coin.
But, I am impressed with all the Sophomoric Greek, which really is “dazzling.”
You have experience with first century Koine Greek as a speaker! Wow, you are older than I thought. We young people can really learn from someone who speaks two thousand year old Greek.
What I said was:
“…but my experience with languages in general informs me…”
And I made it clear that I do NOT have the exceptional experience with Koine to know off hand, authoritatively, just by “hearing” a text, the finer points of what it says.
Some people treat a text like math, with “law of identity” and such, but it doesn’t work that way. You can stick a comma just anywhere, but a Greek speaker wouldn’t put it just any place.
And pretended expertise in a foreign language is unbecoming, if not reprehensible.
“Some people treat a text like math, with “law of identity” and such, but it doesn’t work that way. You can stick a comma just anywhere, but a Greek speaker wouldn’t put it just any place.”
Every commenter has been going for “Truly I say to you that . . .” so I figure this comment has something to do with what I said in the main post. I don’t ever say that a Greek speaker would put a comma any place. I actually doubt there would have been “commas” in the time of Koine Greek. Secondly, to look at other similar sentence constructions and syntactical arrangements isn’t to treat the “text like math.” It’s an attempt to get a feel for some possible language usage for those who spoke and wrote the language back then. We don’t have the biblical writers here to tell us how they used the language, so we can only make inferences from what they’ve left behind in other places.
If you think something is problematic, then engage it. I have reservations that your “limited experience with languages in general” is going to count for anything for most people who study Koine Greek.
“And pretended expertise in a foreign language is unbecoming, if not reprehensible.”
I can only assume this also has something to do with the blog post (and/or comments?) at hand, especially since you made another remark about “Sophomoric Greek” here. I would like you to provide some sort of backing that anyone here has claimed some kind of “expertise” in Koine Greek. Since you like to quote, you might go through the post (and/or comments?) and give us some quotations as to where anyone claimed to have “expertise.”
Brian, ROFL! Thanks for the humor. That was much needed.
I admit that I was “dumping” on every pretentious appeal to Greek ever, including my own, in the post. Don’t take it too personally.
Sorry, never did take it personal. You could use your own blog to dump on yourself, or make it clear from the get-go whom you’re addressing. Otherwise if you make a comment on my blog post, along with references to “sophomoric Greek” on the same post, what else is there to think? But it doesn’t mean anyone here is taking anything personally.
…or in WE’s case taking it seriously.
If we are to understand that the malefactor had in mind the kindness that David showed to Saul’s descendent, Mephibosheth (2 Sam 9) for the sake of Jonathon, whom David “loved as his own life,” then perhaps what the malefactor had in mind was some kind of kindness to his children.
If so, then the import of what Jesus says shifts from a kindness to his offspring to a kindness to himself. “YOU will be with me in paradise” becomes significant, as does “today,” as if he said, “David showed kindness to Jonathon’s family, but I’m saying to you that *you* that *today* (rather than posthumously, your posterity) will be with me in paradise.”
Interestingly, SOI (“to you”) *is* moved forward of the verb (LEGW). So also SHMERON is also moved forward, also providing **emphasis**.
So, perhaps, with a backdrop of David posthumously remembering a faithful friend’s kin, Jesus is saying, “MORE than that, I’ll be with YOU this VERY DAY, and will be with you in God’s garden together.”
In this reading, God’s garden includes his faithful, sleeping, awaiting resurrection.